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### Question #: 13988

Question: What issues will a user need to be prepared to solve with the vertical laser that they wouldn't normally see with a horizontal bed?

Current Solution

I personally haven't noticed any issues with horizontal and vertical (slanted). If there is no backing on the vertical laser (something behind the workpiece), then the parts do tend to fall out. Just keep something behind the workpiece.

On a horizontal bed, you may be able to get a bit of a better vacuum hold down, but with a machine the size of a 4'x8', there really isn't a great way to get vacuum hold down, and I haven't seen the need for it anyway.

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### Other Possible Solutions to this Question

• When will 100W or 130W lasers be available for the vertical laser system? What will be the price point? Ballpark figures at least, please.

100W and 130W lasers and power supplies can be equipped now, but we will have to special order them. Price point for the 100W will be estimated \$150-\$200 more than the 80W, and 130W \$250-\$300 more.

• What is the acceleration limited to with the laser tube vertical?

With our new Laser/Spindle Combo Head for our greenBull, we kept the acceleration the same and had no issues at all with the tube (regarding chipping breaking etc.). So there is no specific limit to the machine (take into affect the weight of your gantry and the overall output of your motors), but here is the setup we have now:
(with a custom greenBull gantry (4' x 8'))
X-axis
SPI: 910.069
Vel: 400.02
Acc: 12
Y-Axis
SPI: 911.023
Vel: 400.02
Acc: 18
Z-Axis
SPI: 1632.653
Vel: 79.98
Acc: 5

What is the acceleration limited to with the laser tube vertical?

• I need the calculation to determine the stepper motor torque to find the load that it can withstand in horizontal position using a lead screw at 1/2" diameter with 13 TPI.

There are two main questions that we can answer with respect to motor torque and the mechanical advantage of lead screws, 1) What torque motor do you need to lift a particular weight, or 2) What maximum weight will my motor torque be able to lift.

This formula uses Newtons (N) as it's final unit. Use this with the included radius (R) to determine the torque. Newtons can easily be converted to lbs or ounces using online conversions.

Effort = Sf + (Load/(2 x pi x (R/p) x Se))

where:
p = pitch of the screw
Se = screw efficiency = Standard lead screw will be between 20% (.2) and 40% (.4)
Sf = static force. This is the force that is needed to start the movement. The number may be eliminated, but it is good to use a number in the 5 N to 20 N range.
Load = the expected load that the effort will need to carry (i.e., the router and the included axis assembly that the motor will need to lift)

This formula is based on the "law of the machine"

The final effort amount with its unit of newtons and R will be the torque. For example, if the effort comes to 100 N (newtons) and the R is .5 inches, then you can assume that the effort is 50 N-in since it would take twice the effort to turn form the one inch mark from the center of the shaft.

Example:

Load = 90 N (20.2 lbs)
R = 1 inch since that is the length from the center of the shaft that the motor is rated
p = 1 inch / 13 = .08 inches

Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (2 x 3.14 x (1 / .08) x .2))
Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (6.28 x 12.5 x .2))
Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (15.7))
Effort = 5 N + (5.73 N)
Effort = 10.7 N = 2.4 lbs = 38.4 oz-in

I am putting the oz-in on the end because the formula considers the distance from the center of the shaft to be one inch.

Therefore, a 425 oz-in motor would be able to lift a 20.2 lb Router with its accompanying assembly. If the assembly and router is heavier, plug in the numbers and determine the effort required.

With a bit of algebra, the formula can be rewritten to find the load:

Load = (Effort - Sf) x (2 x pi x (R/p) x Se)

Another formula that does not consider friction at all:

Effort = (Load x p) / (2 x pi x R)

Lets see if we get similar results:

Effort = (20 lb x .08 inches) / (2 x 3.14 x 1)
Effort = 1.6 / 6.28 = .255 lbs = 4.08 oz-in

The results from both formulas appear to be very small because a 13 TPI screw will have enormous mechanical advantage.

It is evident that the first formula that does consider friction that we are loosely estimating is far more conservative than the second formula. Either way, even the most conservative formula shows that the 425 oz-in motor will handle very large weights. If you are using a lead screw with only two turns per inch, .5 inch pitch, you can determine the requirements with the first formula.

Example for a 10 TPI 5 start (2 turns per inch) lead screw:

Load = 90 N (20.2 lbs)
R = 1 inch since that is the length from the center of the shaft that the motor is rated
p = 1 inch / 2 = .5 inches

Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (2 x 3.14 x (1 / .5) x .2))
Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (6.28 x 2 x .2))
Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (2.512))
Effort = 5 N + (35.83 N)
Effort = 40.828 N = 9.18 lbs = 146.88 oz-in

Customer Response:
thank you so much

how do i calculate torque of stepper motor if lead screw coupled to motor shaft and load applied by lead screw on plate is 100 kg by vertically

Pls

1m 16mmdiameter ball screws calculations

• Can the vertical CNC router do about what a horizontal router can, like cutting out 3/4" cabinet doors from a 4'X8' formica clad sheet? If so, how do you hold it - with Vacuum? Is a vacuum system available?

Our hold down method is screws. For a 4'x8' 3/4" sheet, we use 6 screws around the perimeter of the sheet. This provides sufficient hold down for milling. For the vertically oriented machine, the sheet also rests on a small ledge, making it easy for the board to maintain position while fastening.

• For the XL Vertical Laser Machine I see it won't cut metal as it is only 80w. However, I noticed that you are working on 100w and 130w versions so will that be sufficient to cut through sheet metal? If so, how much longer until those are available?

Cutting metal with lasers even at 100W and 130W is difficult. The main problem is molten is a byproduct of lasing, which can severely damage the laser.

• Will the new 100W and 130W lasers to be implemented for the very large vertical cutter feature the same lenses and mirrors as the 80 watt system? Will they feature the same focal distance and depth of field?

The mirrors should be kept identical.

• MY LASER MACHINE VERTICAL DOES NOT ACTIVATE THE LASER TUBE, VERIFY THE POWER SUPPLIES AND THEY ARE WORKING WHICH THE PROBLEM CAN BE

Same issue here -- TTL output from the AWC708C never seems to be pulled low. Still troubleshooting.

• how much would your vertical laser kit cost without the wood components and door plastic shipped to Canada

Good question. I will need to add up the cost. However, the complete kit with the wood components will cost in the range of \$300 to \$500 using freight.

I will add a price option on the Vertical Laser XL page that shows the assembly price without the wood structural parts. Are you wanting the rails included in the price?

Hi, I was expecting an email answer, I did not know that you answered. Also I am in Fiji, not Canada. There is a flaw with your question form, It would not accept Fiji because we have no postal codes, so I put in my old Canadian code so that it would accept my question.

Yes we would need the rails and any mechanical and electrical components. Our plan is to build it against a wall in a shipping container.

If you do not have a suitable freight forwarder I can ask at this end because people frequently receive shipping containers.

Thank you,

George

• from what I understand, The BlackTooth Laser comes with an open bottom with no bed, does one pull air through this opening for fume ventilation through the bed?

On the blackTooth laser cutter and engraver, the ventilation is at the back and there is a slit at the bottom front so when the machine is placed on a surface, the air will move from the front of the machine and out the back through the ventilation. This will move the particles past the mirrors and tube output efficiently with a reduced likelihood of building up on these important surfaces.

• I ordered a redLeaf with Mach3 installed. Do you guys configure any of the setting in mach3 or will I need to do that all myself?

The redLeaf CNC computer systems will have either Mach3 or LinuxCNC installed as per the customer's request. If the Mach3 license is purchased, the license file will also be installed on the redLeaf CNC computer system.

The Mach3 or LinuxCNC settings will be configured during the assembly of the system. We contact the customer to determine the drive (mechanics) and inertial (weight of gantry and other parts of the gantry) specifications in order to correctly configure the steps per inch, velocity and acceleration.

• I am having issues with the laser firing. Seems like there is an arc in the end of the tube where the elctrode is but i am not sure if i am doing something wrong.

Has the tube functioned properly prior to this issue?

• What doesn't come with the electronics that I will need so it will work?

Here is a list of the parts needed to get the electronics combo functioning (parallel or USB interface options):

- 22 or 24 gauge stranded hookup wire to connect all of the drivers to the USB or parallel interface (terminal to terminal connections),
- 18 gauge stranded hookup wire to connect the drivers to the power supply,
- a power cable (extension cord) to connect from the power outlet to the power supply,
- 4 conductor cable to connect the drivers to the stepper motors,
- a USB cable to connect from the computer to the USB interface (or for power to the parallel interface),
- for the parallel interface, a parallel cable is needed (male to male db-25),
- a computer (for parallel interface, the computer will need a parallel port and if the computer does not contain a parallel interface, the motherboard may have a header for it, or you can purchase a parallel adapter to plug into the motherboard, very inexpensive),
- cnc control software: for the USB interface, you will need planet-cnc software, for the parallel interface, you can use any industry standard cnc control software (the typical is Mach3 for Windows, or EMC2 or Linuxcnc for Linux (Linuxcnc.org).

5v power supply is not needed. The 5 volts signal level power is derived from the computer through USB on both types of interfaces.

What doesn't come with the electronics that I will need so it will work?

• am interested in purchasing the 80 Watt Vertical Laser XL 4'x8' Laser Cutter and Engraver, what material depth can it cut?

The Vertical Laser XL's 80 watt CO2 laser tube is capable of cutting lighter material such as wood and plastic at up to 1/2" or 12mm.

• What file types will the vertical laser xl accept?

LaserCAD and the Anywells Laser Controller used in our BlackTooth and Vertical Laser XL laser cutters and engravers can accept these file types:

.nc (Gcode)
.svg
.plt
.dst
.dsb
.uds (UD)
.bmp (Bitmap image)
.gif (Image)
.jpg (Joint Photographers)
.png

What file types will the vertical laser xl accept?

• I have the 2.2KW VFD. I would like to have it controlled through software. What are the Mode parameters that need to be changed that will allow FWD/ REV, START/STOP and RPM control?

What controller are you using to control the cnc machine (Mach3 usb, parallel breakout board, etc.)?

The spindle VFD has an input for 0-10 volts to control the speed and can be used with the MAch3 USB or the Pokeys57CNC board. There are also other terminals in the VFD to control the forwared/reverse and start and stop. Mach3 has parameters to control these output and you need to specify which pins are used for these.

You can also use the TX/RX RS-485 connection on the VFD to have total control using an FTDI USB to serial connector board to connect the computer directly to the VFD.

How to connect the USB to Serial adapter to the VFD:
https://www.buildyourcnc.com/FAQ/13790

FTDI USB to Serial:
https://www.buildyourcnc.com/item/Interfaces-newbiehack-Interfaces-TTL232R-USB-UART-Serial

Pokeys57CNC board:
https://www.buildyourcnc.com/item/electronicsAndMotors-electronic-component-breakout-Mach4-mach3-USB-ethernet-Board

Mach3 USB board:
https://www.buildyourcnc.com/item/electronicsAndMotors-electronic-component-breakout-Mach3-USB-Board

Parallel Breakout board:
https://www.buildyourcnc.com/item/electronicsAndMotors-parallel-breakout-relay

I do apologize for leaving out the parts list.
Leadshine MX4660 4-Axis Digital Stepper Motor Driver
Ethernet SmoothStepper
YL600-2S-2K20 VFD
4 Relay control board
Has anyone had any success getting Mach3 to control the spindle speed and direction?

• What are some good ways to control the vertical laser from a Linux machine?

There really isn't any good way to use Linux when using a traditional Laser Controller. If LaserCAD worked under the Linux OS, then that would work.

Would you like to know an alternative to use Linux using maybe LinuxCNC? There are ways to do it, but you will find yourself deep in g-code and out of the box wiring configurations, most likely.

Alternatively, you can create a dual boot scenario and put Window on the other part of the hard drive. This way, you would be able to run LaserCAD.

You can also "attempt" to use LaserCAD in the wine environment, but I have a feeling that will probably not work.

We're a small family-owned electronics and hardware manufacturer, using LinuxCNC already for milling. Dual-boot into Windows isn't a sensible option -- it would greatly reduce the utility of the machine. I have more information about our use case in https://buildyourcnc.com/FAQ/13985.

Ok, fair enough. Then let's get into the details on how you can use LinuxCNC to operate a Laser machine.

Do you have an idea what controller you will be using? Parallel?

My first inclination was to use LinuCNC with the parallel interface board. Of that's the answer, then we might want to just add to the LinuxCNC discussion that's starting to firm up at https://buildyourcnc.com/FAQ/13985 rather than duplicate the information here.

I'm open to other alternatives and am happy to hack; we make PCBs and cable harnesses as a business, so that's not a limitation either. One answer might be to use one of the open source controllers that are starting to show up.

My turn for phone typos. ;-) I meant to say "If that's the answer, then..."

Good idea. Thanks.

When a direct solution is realized on buildyourtools, I will post it here.

What are some good ways to control the vertical laser from a Linux machine?

• What steppers are required for the X, Y, and Z axis of the scratch build kit? Do they all need to be the same rating?

The required motors are the 425 oz-in stepping motors, would be the required motors to run the machine efficiently.

• Are the VFDs and pumps compatible with the european electric circuit (230V/50Hz) and what kind of connectors will be delivered?

The VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) is not supplied with plugs, cable or connectors. You provide the cable and power plug or connector for the VFD. All you need to do is get an extension cable and expose the three wires of the cable and connect them to R, T and Ground. Please see the datasheet on this page for wiring information: https://www.buildyourcnc.com/item/spindle-inverter-2!2kw-spindle-novfd

Our pumps only have a 110 volt input, so you will need to purchase the pump in your country.

• Have checked stepper motor wires dozens of times and they are wired like diagram says. Stepper motors will not turn under power. I am using laser control option. What should I do?

This sounds like a problem with the step (pulse) signal. The driver motors receive two signals from the computer via the board -- one is high or low and tells the motors which direction to turn, one is a square wave pulsed signal(quick that tells the motor to turn or a constant high signal that tells the motor to maintain its position. With an oscilliscope you can check for proper signal at the board. If you bought the board from us, please contact us to arrange a return authorization.

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