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Question #: 13993

Question: Can the Redleaf CPU be mounted in a vertical position so that motor cables run straight down?

Current Solution

Absolutely. Everything in the redLeaf control box is securely fastened and can be mounted in any orientation.

Check out this example where the Children's Museum of Houston mounted their redLeaf vertically.

https://www.buildyourcnc.com/tutorials/Example-customer-blackfoot-houston-childrens-museum

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Other Possible Solutions to this Question

• Can the black foot table be mounted vertically or at a steep angle?

Unfortunately not. The weight of the spindle and the z-axis assembly is too much for the motor to hold its position. If you need a steep angled bed, then the greenLean is the best machine for this purpose and comes with the entire structure where the blackFoot requires you to construct the table.

Can the black foot table be mounted vertically or at a steep angle?

• I need the calculation to determine the stepper motor torque to find the load that it can withstand in horizontal position using a lead screw at 1/2" diameter with 13 TPI.

There are two main questions that we can answer with respect to motor torque and the mechanical advantage of lead screws, 1) What torque motor do you need to lift a particular weight, or 2) What maximum weight will my motor torque be able to lift.

This formula uses Newtons (N) as it's final unit. Use this with the included radius (R) to determine the torque. Newtons can easily be converted to lbs or ounces using online conversions.

Effort = Sf + (Load/(2 x pi x (R/p) x Se))

where:
p = pitch of the screw
Se = screw efficiency = Standard lead screw will be between 20% (.2) and 40% (.4)
Sf = static force. This is the force that is needed to start the movement. The number may be eliminated, but it is good to use a number in the 5 N to 20 N range.
Load = the expected load that the effort will need to carry (i.e., the router and the included axis assembly that the motor will need to lift)

This formula is based on the "law of the machine"

The final effort amount with its unit of newtons and R will be the torque. For example, if the effort comes to 100 N (newtons) and the R is .5 inches, then you can assume that the effort is 50 N-in since it would take twice the effort to turn form the one inch mark from the center of the shaft.

Example:

Load = 90 N (20.2 lbs)
R = 1 inch since that is the length from the center of the shaft that the motor is rated
p = 1 inch / 13 = .08 inches

Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (2 x 3.14 x (1 / .08) x .2))
Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (6.28 x 12.5 x .2))
Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (15.7))
Effort = 5 N + (5.73 N)
Effort = 10.7 N = 2.4 lbs = 38.4 oz-in

I am putting the oz-in on the end because the formula considers the distance from the center of the shaft to be one inch.

Therefore, a 425 oz-in motor would be able to lift a 20.2 lb Router with its accompanying assembly. If the assembly and router is heavier, plug in the numbers and determine the effort required.

With a bit of algebra, the formula can be rewritten to find the load:

Load = (Effort - Sf) x (2 x pi x (R/p) x Se)

Another formula that does not consider friction at all:

Effort = (Load x p) / (2 x pi x R)

Lets see if we get similar results:

Effort = (20 lb x .08 inches) / (2 x 3.14 x 1)
Effort = 1.6 / 6.28 = .255 lbs = 4.08 oz-in

The results from both formulas appear to be very small because a 13 TPI screw will have enormous mechanical advantage.

It is evident that the first formula that does consider friction that we are loosely estimating is far more conservative than the second formula. Either way, even the most conservative formula shows that the 425 oz-in motor will handle very large weights. If you are using a lead screw with only two turns per inch, .5 inch pitch, you can determine the requirements with the first formula.

Example for a 10 TPI 5 start (2 turns per inch) lead screw:

Load = 90 N (20.2 lbs)
R = 1 inch since that is the length from the center of the shaft that the motor is rated
p = 1 inch / 2 = .5 inches

Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (2 x 3.14 x (1 / .5) x .2))
Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (6.28 x 2 x .2))
Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (2.512))
Effort = 5 N + (35.83 N)
Effort = 40.828 N = 9.18 lbs = 146.88 oz-in

Customer Response:
thank you so much

how do i calculate torque of stepper motor if lead screw coupled to motor shaft and load applied by lead screw on plate is 100 kg by vertically

Pls

1m 16mmdiameter ball screws calculations

• My plasmacam cnc machine has servo motors with an optical encoder to provide position sensing. Can the pokeys57 cnc controller and drivers run those servos?

Yes, the Pokeys57CNC can control standard CNC or plasma machine servos as servo drives accept step and direction signals just like stepper motors.

• DO YOU SUPPLY THE MALE PORTION OF MOTOR CONTROL CABLES WITH REDLEAF?

Yes and properly soldered.

20

DO YOU SUPPLY THE MALE PORTION OF MOTOR CONTROL CABLES WITH REDLEAF?

• So after I install the stepper motors, how does the system know what’s the start position ? I’m modifying a lathe.

If you are using a control program, like Mach3, then you will move (jog) the axis to the location that you want to set as your start position and "zero" that axis. Make sure that the axis moves in the positive direction where you would expect. If this is not the case, you will need to reverse that axis according to the instruction with your control program.

• Do you have the data sheets for the motors so that I can use the dimensions in my model?

You can find the datasheets to our motors be going to the the stepping motor category page https://www.buildyourcnc.com/category/nema and selecting the motor. This will bring you to the product page for the motor and all of the motor information will be found there.

Do you have the data sheets for the motors so that I can use the dimensions in my model?

• Is there a manual or some documentation of how a binary value in the printer port translates to position on each motor?

The parallel (printer cable) port is uses the computer as its main source of pulse trains to operate the motor driver directly. Parallel ports are a direct connection from the processor commonly referred to as GPIO pins (General Purpose I/O pins) and provides a convenient and powerful way to interface with the computer. The parallel breakout board is included in those kits only to condition those signals for use with the drivers.

The USB serves at the actual controller, sending the pulse trains, but the computer sends simple human readable instructions to the USB controller to tell the controller how to send pulses.

The non-technical differences that may serve as the most important information to you is that the parallel configurations allow for a wider variety of industry standard software that can be used to control the cnc machine. The USB that we offer requires the operator to use a software called Planet-CNC software which is a very well made and feature full cnc control software.

• I am wondering if you also supply plans for the bigger machines, also the vertical CNC that you have in your product range?

The only plans we sell for any machine, are the ones that relate to the book we create found here, http://www.buildyourcnc.com/Book.aspx

Here is the link to those plans that we sell, http://www.buildyourcnc.com/cnckitintro.aspx

We do not sell any other plans, only full kits, with or without electronics.

• Can the leangreen vertical laser be adapted to attach a spindle as well?

At this current time we only have the laser hybrid available for the greenBull. Due to the weight that is on the z-axis for the greenLean and the spring load, we have not tried retrofitting it just yet.

However, with enough skill and patience anything is possible. Please let us know if you try this and any lessons learned along the way.

Can the leangreen vertical laser be adapted to attach a spindle as well?

• What issues will a user need to be prepared to solve with the vertical laser that they wouldn't normally see with a horizontal bed?

I personally haven't noticed any issues with horizontal and vertical (slanted). If there is no backing on the vertical laser (something behind the workpiece), then the parts do tend to fall out. Just keep something behind the workpiece.

On a horizontal bed, you may be able to get a bit of a better vacuum hold down, but with a machine the size of a 4'x8', there really isn't a great way to get vacuum hold down, and I haven't seen the need for it anyway.

• How feasible would a vacuum hold-down system be for a vertical CNC like the greenLean?

Building a vacuum table, for any CNC machine is possible but doing it right might take a adequate amount of information and extensive planning. Depending on the overall complexity you want to build.
Example, you want sections, and valves that can be operated to close sections of the table to allow vacuum to a specific spot of you material.
It is possible and would be a very precise method to hold down your material.

Thanks. It may be something I'd like to try on my greenLean at some point. Dan Spangler wrote a nice article on building a "Universal" CNC vacuum table in the latest issue of Make magazine, volume 41.

How feasible would a vacuum hold-down system be for a vertical CNC like the greenLean?

• I am wiring my estop to the redleaf NC closed using pin 13 and ground to red side of the button is that all that needs to be done

Using pin 13 should be fine as long as it is enabled in Mach3 for the Estop. Go to Mach3, Config> Ports and Pins> Input Signals and make sure EStop is enabled and pin number is set to 13.

• MY LASER MACHINE VERTICAL DOES NOT ACTIVATE THE LASER TUBE, VERIFY THE POWER SUPPLIES AND THEY ARE WORKING WHICH THE PROBLEM CAN BE

Same issue here -- TTL output from the AWC708C never seems to be pulled low. Still troubleshooting.

• Are the stepper motors on x and y axis suppose to be hot after running for approximately 30 min. I can touch them but they are hot.

If your motors are hot to the touch, this is normal. Current is being drawn by the motor coils as the motor moves and as the motor stays at a position. If the motor is not using the current in the coils to move (holding it's position), the energy will be translated as heat (rather than motion, sound or light). Even while moving, some of the energy will be lost as heat. Remember that energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

• Will Mach3 USB Interface board fit in my redleaf, in lieu of the breakout board that came with it?

The Mach3 USB board will fit in the redLeaf, but you may need to modify the Plexiglas top for proper mounting. However, the redLeaf has the proper parallel GPIO on the motherboard for use with the Parallel breakout board. If you have a laser on the machine you are using, then I would urge you to maintain the parallel breakout board as the Mach3 USB board will not work correctly using the Z-direction pin and you will need to determine how to use the output pins onthe USB board to ensure proper laser functionality.

Will Mach3 USB Interface board fit in my redleaf, in lieu of the breakout board that came with it?

• HOW DO I DETERMINE THE AMOUNT OF SCREW WEIGTH THAT MY MOTOR CAN HANDLE

There are two main questions that we can answer with respect to motor torque and the mechanical advantage of lead screws, 1) What torque motor do you need to lift a particular weight, or 2) What maximum weight will my motor torque be able to lift.

This formula uses Newtons (N) as it's final unit. Use this with the included radius (R) to determine the torque. Newtons can easily be converted to lbs or ounces using online conversions.

Effort = Sf + (Load/(2 x pi x (R/p) x Se))

where:
p = pitch of the screw
Se = screw efficiency = Standard lead screw will be between 20% (.2) and 40% (.4)
Sf = static force. This is the force that is needed to start the movement. The number may be eliminated, but it is good to use a number in the 5 N to 20 N range.
Load = the expected load that the effort will need to carry (i.e., the router and the included axis assembly that the motor will need to lift)

This formula is based on the "law of the machine"

The final effort amount with its unit of newtons and R will be the torque. For example, if the effort comes to 100 N (newtons) and the R is .5 inches, then you can assume that the effort is 50 N-in since it would take twice the effort to turn form the one inch mark from the center of the shaft.

Example:

Load = 90 N (20.2 lbs)
R = 1 inch since that is the length from the center of the shaft that the motor is rated
p = 1 inch / 13 = .08 inches

Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (2 x 3.14 x (1 / .08) x .2))
Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (6.28 x 12.5 x .2))
Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (15.7))
Effort = 5 N + (5.73 N)
Effort = 10.7 N = 2.4 lbs = 38.4 oz-in

I am putting the oz-in on the end because the formula considers the distance from the center of the shaft to be one inch.

Therefore, a 425 oz-in motor would be able to lift a 20.2 lb Router with its accompanying assembly. If the assembly and router is heavier, plug in the numbers and determine the effort required.

With a bit of algebra, the formula can be rewritten to find the load:

Load = (Effort - Sf) x (2 x pi x (R/p) x Se)

Another formula that does not consider friction at all:

Effort = (Load x p) / (2 x pi x R)

Lets see if we get similar results:

Effort = (20 lb x .08 inches) / (2 x 3.14 x 1)
Effort = 1.6 / 6.28 = .255 lbs = 4.08 oz-in

The results from both formulas appear to be very small because a 13 TPI screw will have enormous mechanical advantage.

It is evident that the first formula that does consider friction that we are loosely estimating is far more conservative than the second formula. Either way, even the most conservative formula shows that the 425 oz-in motor will handle very large weights. If you are using a lead screw with only two turns per inch, .5 inch pitch, you can determine the requirements with the first formula.

Example for a 10 TPI 5 start (2 turns per inch) lead screw:

Load = 90 N (20.2 lbs)
R = 1 inch since that is the length from the center of the shaft that the motor is rated
p = 1 inch / 2 = .5 inches

Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (2 x 3.14 x (1 / .5) x .2))
Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (6.28 x 2 x .2))
Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (2.512))
Effort = 5 N + (35.83 N)
Effort = 40.828 N = 9.18 lbs = 146.88 oz-in

Customer Response:
thank you so much

how do i calculate torque of stepper motor if lead screw coupled to motor shaft and load applied by lead screw on plate is 100 kg by vertically

Pls

1m 16mmdiameter ball screws calculations

HOW DO I DETERMINE THE AMOUNT OF SCREW WEIGTH THAT MY MOTOR CAN HANDLE

• I cannot find a driver for the NEMA 14 Stepping Motor (17 oz-in 1/4" dual shaft) on your site, would something like the Pololu DRV8834 be okay? (I note that the stepper requires 2.7v)
• I am building a machine that requires 2 steppers to drive the Y axis, can you make me a redleaf system using the 651oz steppers that will work for me?

Yes, we can make a redLeaf system that has all 6A drivers for use with the 651 oz-in motors. We can also wire the electronics in a way that two of the drivers will use the pins of the same axis so that axis will drive two drivers and motors.

• The instructions for the 3-axis combo at https://buildyourcnc.com/item/electronicsAndMotors-3axis-425-elcombo seem to be missing. Can you look into that.

To wire the CNC electronics, use the tutorial for the specific interface board you are using.

If you have the parallel breakout board, use this tutorial:
https://buildyourcnc.com/CNCElectronicsandWiring.aspx

If you have the USB interface board, use this tutorial:
https://buildyourcnc.com/tutorials/tutorial-Electronics-USB-Interface-Wiring

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