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Question #: 13751

Question: My X-axis on the Blacktoe cannot run above ~40 ipm. I've checked all connections,tensions, sprocket locks, etc. All is fine. Can the 425 OZ stepping motor be replaced with a bigger motor, or could a second 425 OZ stepper be added to increase torque?

Current Solution

it is possible to install 2 motors on a single axis but you will require another driver and motor, but wire it directly to the same pins on your breakout board. Also the orientation of your motor since it is opposite side of the original so getting it to move accordingly to the original motor it will need to be orientated correctly. The slight shift could be the cause of the rod not being completely flat where the set screws are suppose to tighten the sprocket to the rod, so sanding it to a flatter surface might fix the shift in directions.
Currently do not have a kit or schematic available.

Respond:

Other Possible Solutions to this Question

  • Hello, I have a BlackToe 2 x 4 machine. I was wondering if it could be beneficial, or even possible to install two motors on the x-axis (one one each chain drive sprocket). I am noticing a slight shift in the gantry with each reversal of direction. If so, do you have a kit or schematic for this? Thanks

    it is possible to install 2 motors on a single axis but you will require another driver and motor, but wire it directly to the same pins on your breakout board. Also the orientation of your motor since it is opposite side of the original so getting it to move accordingly to the original motor it will need to be orientated correctly. The slight shift could be the cause of the rod not being completely flat where the set screws are suppose to tighten the sprocket to the rod, so sanding it to a flatter surface might fix the shift in directions.
    Currently do not have a kit or schematic available.

    Click the link to respond:
    Hello, I have a BlackToe 2 x 4 machine. I was wondering if it could be beneficial, or even possible to install two motors on the x-axis (one one each chain drive sprocket). I am noticing a slight shift in the gantry with each reversal of direction. If so, do you have a kit or schematic for this? Thanks

  • What would I need to purchase to increase the Z axis stepper motor up one size from the one that comes with the Blacktoe 4.1 with computer? I can't get Patrick to answer e-mails, so I'll try here.

    Thanks for the question. The blackToe z-axis motor is a NEMA 24 425 oz-in stepping motor and the next step up is a NEMA 34 651 oz-in motor located here: https://buildyourcnc.com/item/electronicsAndMotors-nema34-651ozin


    To make it work on the blackToe CNC machine, you would need to fabricate a new mount and the top bearing mount, or request us to fabricate it for you by calling the office.

    Curious, why the need to increase the size? If the motor is having a difficult time, there may be a deeper mechanical issue at play. One issue you may have is that the bearings are needing shim washers to separate the inner and outer races. If the two races are rubbing against the coupling or collar, the bearing may be difficult to turn under the weight of the assembly. If there is too much friction between the anti-backlash nut and the lead screw, you can add some 2-in-1 oil, or other similar lubricant.

    Thank you for using our Customer Service Live. Patrick often answers these questions. We prefer this system over email as these questions will benefit others.

    If you have additional questions or need more explanation relating to this question, please add to this answer.

    User response:
    I have added the shim washer between the bearing and coupling and have always used a light oil on the lead screw. I halved the acceleration on the Z-axis. Then I re-ran a topo that took two hours on the finish pass. No change in my results - the Z-axis slowly dropped until when the program finished and everything went back to the start point, the Z axis was lower by 0.378 inches than when it started at 0.800 above the surface.

    Any suggestions would be appreciated. Maybe I need more shim washers in the assembly between all the bearing surfaces?

    buildyourcnc response:
    Before you add a larger motor, check these first:

    1. take the motor off by remove only the motor screws and removing the motor as well as the coupling half that is secured to the motor shaft.

    2. Turn the lead screw by hand. This will still be connected to the z-axis assembly by the anti-backlash nut, so you will feel the resistance in the upward motion of the z-axis. Does it feel relatively easy to turn, or very difficult?

    3. If the resistance is relatively normal with respect to gravity and normal friction between the anti-backlash nut and the screw, then you may want to half the velocity as well on the z-axis motor tuning, and even reduce the acceleration a bit more. Doing topographical layouts should not require fast z-axis motor travel. Be careful not to lower the z-axis acceleration if you are using constant velocity as this can make the topo "too smooth" where there may be features such as cliffs present. If you need to lower acceleration drastically, then use exact stop rather than constant velocity.

    Another gotcha that may be causing this phenomenon is motor cable/wire chafing. We had this same issue crop up where two wires were shorting only at a specific position because the wires moved just enough to cause these wires to connect. This was caused by a zip tie. Zip ties have a very sharp edge that can cut the insulation of the wire. A hint of this problem is if this phenomenon is only present after working successfully with the machine for a greater period of time.

    Use response:
    I bought a new lead screw, bearings, antibacklash nut, and shim washers (WHICH NEED TO BE IN YOUR ONLINE CATALOG) and installed them. (Like another commentor on this site, my lead screw wouldn't go through the bearings. Simple solution was to chuck it into my drill press and 400 grit smooth it until a snug fit was had. Lowest RPM.)

    Anyhow, I ran another Topo yesterday and got the same results. The wires are not frayed, the acceleration has been halved, the speed reduced to a crawl. When testing manually, twisting the Z axis up was very hard to do compared to lowering it.

    I have thought about a counterbalance of some type, but that introduces lots of other problems.

    Anything you can thing of will certainly help.

    I can send pictures, etc.

    Thanks!

    Buildyourcnc response
    What router/spindle do you have installed?

    User response:
    The one you sold me - 110 V, 1.5KW water cooled.

    User response:
    This problem of the z axis drift has been evident since I first started using the machine a couple of years ago. Lithophanes, stipples, topographic and other heavy z axis users have been particularly bad. It is to the point that I am turning away opportunities for lack of capability.

    Buildyourcnc response:
    I think all options may be exhausted. We will design a new mount that holds a large motor. Please give us a call so we can arrange to send that out to you.

    We just determined that the existing mount need to be adjusted by about one millimeter for the main mounting hoes for the larger NEMA 34 motor to fit. The overall mount will look the same but the outside hole spacing will be adjusted by a very small amount to match the larger motor mounting holes. This new adjustment will be included with all new machines. We will send you the new mount (consisting of two structural pieces) and the longer screws that will be needed to extend to fit the motor frame thickness.

    Additional Information:


    Additional Information:
    They didn't send the longer screws, nor the new required coupling, but I finally got it together and it works just fine. It returns to precise Z zero every time.

    But the motor runs pretty hot because I think it should be run at a higher voltage than the current power supply provides.

    Any new sales of Blacktoe 4.1 should include this modification.

    Cheers.

    Click the link to respond:
    What would I need to purchase to increase the Z axis stepper motor up one size from the one that comes with the Blacktoe 4.1 with computer? I can't get Patrick to answer e-mails, so I'll try here.

  • Lost Comm with steppers: I have been running Mach3 with my Black Toe for years. This morning, I booted up, motors locked up. Started Mach, hit reset, and nothing. Can't move. Checked plugs. Diag screen says OK. What to look for? I have the BYOCNC Computer/contoller box.

    New clues. I loaded a different profile I have used for another machine and my Black Toe moves. Of course all the settings are different. I load my normal profile and no ports, pins, or outputs light up.

    Click the link to respond:
    Lost Comm with steppers: I have been running Mach3 with my Black Toe for years. This morning, I booted up, motors locked up. Started Mach, hit reset, and nothing. Can't move. Checked plugs. Diag screen says OK. What to look for? I have the BYOCNC Computer/contoller box.

  • I cannot find a driver for the NEMA 14 Stepping Motor (17 oz-in 1/4" dual shaft) on your site, would something like the Pololu DRV8834 be okay? (I note that the stepper requires 2.7v)
  • I bought a Blacktoe 2 x 8 three years ago and have always had a problem with the Zid axis. No matter how tightly I've calibrated the axis it always cuts to deep. Can I put a larger Stepper motor on Z-axis using the same motion electronics that came with the original machine.

    Modifying the Z-axis to accommodate a larger motor will be a worth while task and is possible, however we have not calibrated the z-axis therefore using the 1600 Steps-per inch in the motor tuning on our machine in our shop. We have not noticed any significant depth increments from not calibrating the z-axis but only from zeroing the z axis too close to the material. Also in your design did you specify the actual depth and the length of tool (end mill/ bit) that you are using?

    Click the link to respond:
    I bought a Blacktoe 2 x 8 three years ago and have always had a problem with the Zid axis. No matter how tightly I've calibrated the axis it always cuts to deep. Can I put a larger Stepper motor on Z-axis using the same motion electronics that came with the original machine.

  • My stepper motors stopped working all of a sudden. Mach 3 is running fine, just no signals getting to the motors. The lights on the motor drivers began blinking erratically when this started. Any advice where a problem like this can come from would be greatly appreciated.

    The drivers have quite a bit of protection, so you probably won't ruin anything. You motors are jumping and that is just the motors engaging from getting power from the power supply.

    There could be many reasons your motors don't turn. Consider these troubleshooting tips:

    - If you are using our parallel breakout board, make sure that the step pins are set for active low (config -> Ports and Pins -> Motor Outputs -> the steps pins should be enabled and set active low)

    - The parallel breakout board is powered (connect the USB to the computer using a USB cable)

    - In Mach3, make sure you have jog enabled (a little green button at thelower middle of the page in the program run screen).

    Additional Information:

    Click the link to respond:
    My stepper motors stopped working all of a sudden. Mach 3 is running fine, just no signals getting to the motors. The lights on the motor drivers began blinking erratically when this started. Any advice where a problem like this can come from would be greatly appreciated.

  • I've built a machine where the y axis has (2) 425oz motors, x axis has (1) 425oz. motor, and the z axis also has (1) 425oz motor. Would it be better to purchase a redleaf system with 4 drivers? or can I just connect both y axis motors to the same driver for a total of 3 drivers?

    In all CNC electronics configurations, you will need the motor paired with its own driver.

    If two motors/drivers are intended for a single axis and the motors need to turn at the same rate and in the same direction, then the two drivers for these motors should be connected to the same signal wires from the breakout board (step (CP) and direction (CW)) signal wires.

    If the motors need to turn in opposite directions, then either one driver will need to have the direction signal inverted, or resolve the opposite direction through a change in the mechanical drive train (i.e. flip the rack on a rack and pinion configuration, or in a roller chain setup, have the chain ride along the opposite side of the drive sprocket).

    How do I go about purchasing a redleaf system with 4 drivers, where the (y) and (a) driver are connected to the same signal from the breakout board? I'd also need them to rotate in opposite directions.

    The redLeaf webpage contains a purchase option for an extra motor and driver. We can setup the redLeaf system uniquely so it conforms to your application (i.e. motors running in opposite directions).

    Click the link to respond:
    I've built a machine where the y axis has (2) 425oz motors, x axis has (1) 425oz. motor, and the z axis also has (1) 425oz motor. Would it be better to purchase a redleaf system with 4 drivers? or can I just connect both y axis motors to the same driver for a total of 3 drivers?

  • I have a blacktooth laser engraver. The Y Axis stepper motor needs to be replaced. Can you please provide me with the information I would need to replace this motor.

    Yes, if you need a replacement part on your machine please call us at 281-815-7701.

    Click the link to respond:
    I have a blacktooth laser engraver. The Y Axis stepper motor needs to be replaced. Can you please provide me with the information I would need to replace this motor.

  • The X-axis stepper motor on my BlackToe suddenly started acting up. It is wired bipolar series, and was working great but then in the midst of a cutting operation the stepper started sounding rough- as though one of the phases was shorting out. However, all the connections and wires are in tact. Any ideas what would most likely cause this?

    If the motor starts acting rough or is excessively trying to move without physically moving the input shaft. Re-check that your pins are in the correct settings and always set the amps required to the closest needed but not exceeded (ex. required 3.00A, but only having 3.14A revert from using 3.14 and go lower to 2.57A).
    Also a software issue that can affect the motor is Config/MotorTunning/(x,y,z)-axis, if you are trying to push your motor to move at a faster rate by modifying the acceleration and velocity could cause your motor to fail if the settings are to high. Lastly out of those two tests, would re-check wiring for continuity lastly.

    Additional Information:
    Also, even if the wiring was checked thoroughly, re-check the wiring for any chafing from wire ties or any other means of causing a short with two or more of the motor wires.

    You can also try swapping the motors from another axis to determine if the cause is derived from the driver or the motor.

    Additional Information:
    I disconnected the stepper motor entirely except left the yellow and blue wires tied together and the motor still made the sound when manually rotating the shaft. When I disconnected the yellow and blue wire the motor rotated smoothly again, so there must be a short inside the motor. Is there a warranty on the motors you sell?

    Click the link to respond:
    The X-axis stepper motor on my BlackToe suddenly started acting up. It is wired bipolar series, and was working great but then in the midst of a cutting operation the stepper started sounding rough- as though one of the phases was shorting out. However, all the connections and wires are in tact. Any ideas what would most likely cause this?

  • On Mach3 USB the port number is 3 but i dont see the motor output pin numbers for the stepper side? could you please provide this for me? maybe a sketch of all the pin numbers the way Mach 3 sees them?

    The step and direction terminals on the Mach3 USB controller are the terminals labeled XP, XD, YP, YD, ZP, ZD, AP and AD. The P is the pulse or step terminal and the D is the direction terminal.

    The configuration for the motor outputs are already configured in the Mach3 configuration file that is available on that product page:
    https://www.buildyourcnc.com/item/electronicsAndMotors-electronic-component-breakout-Mach3-USB-Board

    Click the link to respond:
    On Mach3 USB the port number is 3 but i dont see the motor output pin numbers for the stepper side? could you please provide this for me? maybe a sketch of all the pin numbers the way Mach 3 sees them?

  • I am converting a 12x36 lathe over to CNC, I am interested in a 2 axis kit. I would love one stepper motor to be no smaller than 1200oz. , and another at 6000z. Is this something that you could offer? I have two other cnc machines but this is my first converstion on my own.

    We may be able to source those motors. Curious, the 6000 oz-in motor is pretty big. Do you mind explaining the application of the CNC machine and the structure that would require the large motor?

    Additional Information:
    The largest motors we can offer is 3900 oz-in without any mechanical help. 6000 oz-in can be resolved by mechanical means as an alternative.

    Click the link to respond:
    I am converting a 12x36 lathe over to CNC, I am interested in a 2 axis kit. I would love one stepper motor to be no smaller than 1200oz. , and another at 6000z. Is this something that you could offer? I have two other cnc machines but this is my first converstion on my own.

  • I'm new to this and was wondering if I connected something incorrectly... I followed the schematics found on this site for wiring. I purchased the heavy gantry kit with the USB power option. All my lights come on and motor shafts resist turning but, I cannot get movement from Mach3. How do I test my equipment to see if I've damaged anything?

    By USB power do you mean the USB board? or do you mean that it is powered through USB but you have the parallel breakout board?


    Additional Information:
    I was referring to USB Board. Thanks for responding but that issue was resolve. I noticed that Mach 3 was downloaded twice. I copied and pasted RNR file to second copy of Mach 3 and motor runs properly. Should I remove one copy of Mach3 so there is only one? Seems like that could cause confusion. Thanks

    Additional Information:
    I was referring to USB Board. Thanks for responding but that issue was resolve. I noticed that Mach 3 was downloaded twice. I copied and pasted RNR file to second copy of Mach 3 and motor runs properly. Should I remove one copy of Mach3 so there is only one? Seems like that could cause confusion. Thanks

    Additional Information:
    I was referring to USB Board. Thanks for responding but that issue was resolve. I noticed that Mach 3 was downloaded twice. I copied and pasted RNR file to second copy of Mach 3 and motor runs properly. Should I remove one copy of Mach3 so there is only one? Seems like that could cause confusion. Thanks

    Click the link to respond:
    I'm new to this and was wondering if I connected something incorrectly... I followed the schematics found on this site for wiring. I purchased the heavy gantry kit with the USB power option. All my lights come on and motor shafts resist turning but, I cannot get movement from Mach3. How do I test my equipment to see if I've damaged anything?

  • X AXIS STEPPER MOTOR STALLS AND SHUTTERS WHEN COMING FROM A STAND STILL WON'T MOVE WITHOUT PUSH BY HAND. I TOOK THE CHAINS OFF SPUN FINE WITH OUT LOAD. HAVE CHAIN HOOKED UP CAN MACHINE BACK FORTH HAND, NO HANG UPS OR ANYTHING, BUT TRY TO IT DOESN'T JUST SPINS OUT. ANY SUGGESTIONS?

    If your axis shutters and will not move unless moved by another force, that sounds like your acceleration is set too high. Lower the acceleration until it works well, then lower it a bit more to have a margin of safety.

    IF that didn't work, try swapping the X and Y drivers. That way you will pinpoint if the issue is the driver. If the proplem persists, then there may be an issue with the motor itself.

    The X and Y drivers can be easily swapped by swapping only the motor wires.

    - Remove the x-axis motor wires from the X driver.
    - Remove the Y motor wires from the Y driver.
    - Insert the X motor wires into the Y driver.
    - Insert the Y motor wires into the X driver.

    Now the Y-axis will move the gantry. Test the Gantry movement by moving the Y axis using the up and down arrow keys (mach3).

    Click the link to respond:
    X AXIS STEPPER MOTOR STALLS AND SHUTTERS WHEN COMING FROM A STAND STILL WON'T MOVE WITHOUT PUSH BY HAND. I TOOK THE CHAINS OFF SPUN FINE WITH OUT LOAD. HAVE CHAIN HOOKED UP CAN MACHINE BACK FORTH HAND, NO HANG UPS OR ANYTHING, BUT TRY TO IT DOESN'T JUST SPINS OUT. ANY SUGGESTIONS?

  • I have one of your smaller stepper motors running my X AXIS bridge crane and if it is moved to fast the stepper motor sounds like it is skipping steps will the 651oz stepper motor require a different power supply and controler?

    Yes, the 651 oz/in motor requires a driver that is compatible to the motors (the motor will draw 6 amps max and the driver paired with this motor will be able to allow for a 6 amp draw). I would also recommend a 36 volt power supply for better high velocity performance.

    Click the link to respond:
    I have one of your smaller stepper motors running my X AXIS bridge crane and if it is moved to fast the stepper motor sounds like it is skipping steps will the 651oz stepper motor require a different power supply and controler?

  • ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WORKS. I HAVE ALL STRUCTURE AND MECHICAL PARTS OF THE BLACKTOOTH CUTTER DONE. HOWEVER WHEN WIRE UP STEPPER MOTOR TO DRIVER. THAT MACH 3 USB CONTROLLER BOARD, TRY JOG MOTOR, WORKS! PREVIOSULY HAD PLANET CNC BREAKOUT HOWRVER, ONLY MOVED MOTORS IN ONE DIRECTION COULDNT CHANGE IT. ANY HELP WOULD BE APRECIATED
  • I bought and built the Blacktooth laser cutter. It works, but one of the stepper motors makes a loud static hiss a second after the CNC power supply is turned on or off, and makes loud tweets and twirps when running. It seems to operate fine otherwise. I was wondering if it was "going bad" or if that is normal?

    Stepper motors are known to make noises while function, however this does not affect accuracy or job function. However we recommend to check your wiring for solid connections, and for good connectivity!



    On a personal note, here is one cool video dealing with making songs with stepper motors!

    Click the link to respond:
    I bought and built the Blacktooth laser cutter. It works, but one of the stepper motors makes a loud static hiss a second after the CNC power supply is turned on or off, and makes loud tweets and twirps when running. It seems to operate fine otherwise. I was wondering if it was "going bad" or if that is normal?

  • my motor only steps in single increments when i click the jog button on the planet cnc software, it doesn't continue stepping as I am holding down the jog button, can anyone help me with this?

    There is a drop menu next to JOG on the main page. Will be the arrow pointing down next to the the JOG box, disable the step option which is the very first option.

    Click the link to respond:
    my motor only steps in single increments when i click the jog button on the planet cnc software, it doesn't continue stepping as I am holding down the jog button, can anyone help me with this?

  • I HAVE ONE OF YOUR SMALLER STEPPER MOTORS RUNNING MY X AXIS BRIDGE CRANE AND IF IT IS MOVED TO FAST THE MOTOR SOUNDS LIKE SKIPPING STEPS WILL 651OZ REQUIRE A DIFFERENT POWER SUPPLY CONTROLER?

    Yes, the 651 oz/in motor requires a driver that is compatible to the motors (the motor will draw 6 amps max and the driver paired with this motor will be able to allow for a 6 amp draw). I would also recommend a 36 volt power supply for better high velocity performance.

    Click the link to respond:
    I HAVE ONE OF YOUR SMALLER STEPPER MOTORS RUNNING MY X AXIS BRIDGE CRANE AND IF IT IS MOVED TO FAST THE MOTOR SOUNDS LIKE SKIPPING STEPS WILL 651OZ REQUIRE A DIFFERENT POWER SUPPLY CONTROLER?

  • I need the calculation to determine the stepper motor torque to find the load that it can withstand in horizontal position using a lead screw at 1/2" diameter with 13 TPI.

    There are two main questions that we can answer with respect to motor torque and the mechanical advantage of lead screws, 1) What torque motor do you need to lift a particular weight, or 2) What maximum weight will my motor torque be able to lift.

    This formula uses Newtons (N) as it's final unit. Use this with the included radius (R) to determine the torque. Newtons can easily be converted to lbs or ounces using online conversions.

    Effort = Sf + (Load/(2 x pi x (R/p) x Se))

    where:
    p = pitch of the screw
    Se = screw efficiency = Standard lead screw will be between 20% (.2) and 40% (.4)
    Sf = static force. This is the force that is needed to start the movement. The number may be eliminated, but it is good to use a number in the 5 N to 20 N range.
    Load = the expected load that the effort will need to carry (i.e., the router and the included axis assembly that the motor will need to lift)
    R = radius of the lead screw


    This formula is based on the "law of the machine"

    The final effort amount with its unit of newtons and R will be the torque. For example, if the effort comes to 100 N (newtons) and the R is .5 inches, then you can assume that the effort is 50 N-in since it would take twice the effort to turn form the one inch mark from the center of the shaft.

    Example:

    Load = 90 N (20.2 lbs)
    R = 1 inch since that is the length from the center of the shaft that the motor is rated
    p = 1 inch / 13 = .08 inches

    Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (2 x 3.14 x (1 / .08) x .2))
    Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (6.28 x 12.5 x .2))
    Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (15.7))
    Effort = 5 N + (5.73 N)
    Effort = 10.7 N = 2.4 lbs = 38.4 oz-in

    I am putting the oz-in on the end because the formula considers the distance from the center of the shaft to be one inch.

    Therefore, a 425 oz-in motor would be able to lift a 20.2 lb Router with its accompanying assembly. If the assembly and router is heavier, plug in the numbers and determine the effort required.

    With a bit of algebra, the formula can be rewritten to find the load:

    Load = (Effort - Sf) x (2 x pi x (R/p) x Se)

    Another formula that does not consider friction at all:

    Effort = (Load x p) / (2 x pi x R)

    Lets see if we get similar results:

    Effort = (20 lb x .08 inches) / (2 x 3.14 x 1)
    Effort = 1.6 / 6.28 = .255 lbs = 4.08 oz-in

    The results from both formulas appear to be very small because a 13 TPI screw will have enormous mechanical advantage.

    It is evident that the first formula that does consider friction that we are loosely estimating is far more conservative than the second formula. Either way, even the most conservative formula shows that the 425 oz-in motor will handle very large weights. If you are using a lead screw with only two turns per inch, .5 inch pitch, you can determine the requirements with the first formula.

    Example for a 10 TPI 5 start (2 turns per inch) lead screw:

    Load = 90 N (20.2 lbs)
    R = 1 inch since that is the length from the center of the shaft that the motor is rated
    p = 1 inch / 2 = .5 inches

    Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (2 x 3.14 x (1 / .5) x .2))
    Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (6.28 x 2 x .2))
    Effort = 5 N + (90 N / (2.512))
    Effort = 5 N + (35.83 N)
    Effort = 40.828 N = 9.18 lbs = 146.88 oz-in

    Customer Response:
    thank you so much

    Additional Information:


    Additional Information:


    Additional Information:
    how do i calculate torque of stepper motor if lead screw coupled to motor shaft and load applied by lead screw on plate is 100 kg by vertically

    Additional Information:
    Pls


    Additional Information:
    1m 16mmdiameter ball screws calculations

    Click the link to respond:
    I need the calculation to determine the stepper motor torque to find the load that it can withstand in horizontal position using a lead screw at 1/2" diameter with 13 TPI.