Thanks for the question. The blackToe z-axis motor is a NEMA 24 425 oz-in stepping motor and the next step up is a NEMA 34 651 oz-in motor located here: https://buildyourcnc.com/item/electronicsAndMotors-nema34-651ozin


To make it work on the blackToe CNC machine, you would need to fabricate a new mount and the top bearing mount, or request us to fabricate it for you by calling the office.

Curious, why the need to increase the size? If the motor is having a difficult time, there may be a deeper mechanical issue at play. One issue you may have is that the bearings are needing shim washers to separate the inner and outer races. If the two races are rubbing against the coupling or collar, the bearing may be difficult to turn under the weight of the assembly. If there is too much friction between the anti-backlash nut and the lead screw, you can add some 2-in-1 oil, or other similar lubricant.

Thank you for using our Customer Service Live. Patrick often answers these questions. We prefer this system over email as these questions will benefit others.

If you have additional questions or need more explanation relating to this question, please add to this answer.

User response:
I have added the shim washer between the bearing and coupling and have always used a light oil on the lead screw. I halved the acceleration on the Z-axis. Then I re-ran a topo that took two hours on the finish pass. No change in my results - the Z-axis slowly dropped until when the program finished and everything went back to the start point, the Z axis was lower by 0.378 inches than when it started at 0.800 above the surface.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Maybe I need more shim washers in the assembly between all the bearing surfaces?

buildyourcnc response:
Before you add a larger motor, check these first:

1. take the motor off by remove only the motor screws and removing the motor as well as the coupling half that is secured to the motor shaft.

2. Turn the lead screw by hand. This will still be connected to the z-axis assembly by the anti-backlash nut, so you will feel the resistance in the upward motion of the z-axis. Does it feel relatively easy to turn, or very difficult?

3. If the resistance is relatively normal with respect to gravity and normal friction between the anti-backlash nut and the screw, then you may want to half the velocity as well on the z-axis motor tuning, and even reduce the acceleration a bit more. Doing topographical layouts should not require fast z-axis motor travel. Be careful not to lower the z-axis acceleration if you are using constant velocity as this can make the topo "too smooth" where there may be features such as cliffs present. If you need to lower acceleration drastically, then use exact stop rather than constant velocity.

Another gotcha that may be causing this phenomenon is motor cable/wire chafing. We had this same issue crop up where two wires were shorting only at a specific position because the wires moved just enough to cause these wires to connect. This was caused by a zip tie. Zip ties have a very sharp edge that can cut the insulation of the wire. A hint of this problem is if this phenomenon is only present after working successfully with the machine for a greater period of time.

Use response:
I bought a new lead screw, bearings, antibacklash nut, and shim washers (WHICH NEED TO BE IN YOUR ONLINE CATALOG) and installed them. (Like another commentor on this site, my lead screw wouldn't go through the bearings. Simple solution was to chuck it into my drill press and 400 grit smooth it until a snug fit was had. Lowest RPM.)

Anyhow, I ran another Topo yesterday and got the same results. The wires are not frayed, the acceleration has been halved, the speed reduced to a crawl. When testing manually, twisting the Z axis up was very hard to do compared to lowering it.

I have thought about a counterbalance of some type, but that introduces lots of other problems.

Anything you can thing of will certainly help.

I can send pictures, etc.

Thanks!

Buildyourcnc response
What router/spindle do you have installed?

User response:
The one you sold me - 110 V, 1.5KW water cooled.

User response:
This problem of the z axis drift has been evident since I first started using the machine a couple of years ago. Lithophanes, stipples, topographic and other heavy z axis users have been particularly bad. It is to the point that I am turning away opportunities for lack of capability.

Buildyourcnc response:
I think all options may be exhausted. We will design a new mount that holds a large motor. Please give us a call so we can arrange to send that out to you.

We just determined that the existing mount need to be adjusted by about one millimeter for the main mounting hoes for the larger NEMA 34 motor to fit. The overall mount will look the same but the outside hole spacing will be adjusted by a very small amount to match the larger motor mounting holes. This new adjustment will be included with all new machines. We will send you the new mount (consisting of two structural pieces) and the longer screws that will be needed to extend to fit the motor frame thickness.

Additional Information:


Additional Information:
They didn't send the longer screws, nor the new required coupling, but I finally got it together and it works just fine. It returns to precise Z zero every time.

But the motor runs pretty hot because I think it should be run at a higher voltage than the current power supply provides.

Any new sales of Blacktoe 4.1 should include this modification.

Cheers.

Click the link to add information to this solution:
What would I need to purchase to increase the Z axis stepper motor up one size from the one that comes with the Blacktoe 4.1 with computer? I can't get Patrick to answer e-mails, so I'll try here.

The instructions on how to use a plate for z-axis homing (moveable sensor) can be found here:

http://www.planet-cnc.com/faq/moveable_sensor/

Additional Information:



Additional Information:



Additional Information:

Click the link to add information to this solution:
Using your USB control board, is it possible to install and use a Z axis touch plate? If yes, what board connections would it be installed to?

Safety should be the first consideration when configuring the Z-axis and how it shows on the DRO (Digital Readout). That is to say, the configuration should make sense to the operator of the machine.

We zero the tip of the end mill at the surface of the stock we are using. When the z-axis moves into the material (the direction that the z-axis travels when the page down key is pressed) the DRO goes into the negative region.

Click the link to add information to this solution:
Would common practice be to have the DRO show positive moment or negative movement when moving the Z axis down?

it is possible to install 2 motors on a single axis but you will require another driver and motor, but wire it directly to the same pins on your breakout board. Also the orientation of your motor since it is opposite side of the original so getting it to move accordingly to the original motor it will need to be orientated correctly. The slight shift could be the cause of the rod not being completely flat where the set screws are suppose to tighten the sprocket to the rod, so sanding it to a flatter surface might fix the shift in directions.
Currently do not have a kit or schematic available.

Click the link to add information to this solution:
My X-axis on the Blacktoe cannot run above ~40 ipm. I've checked all connections,tensions, sprocket locks, etc. All is fine. Can the 425 OZ stepping motor be replaced with a bigger motor, or could a second 425 OZ stepper be added to increase torque?

If the gantry height is changed by, say 3 inches, then the z-axis front, rails and back (where the nut is mounted) needs to increase by 3 inches.

Click the link to add information to this solution:
Has anyone built the machine from the book plans and made changes to the Gantry to allow an increase in the Z-axis travel. If so, what dimensional changes need to be made besides increasing the height of the Z-axis pieces? I would imagine the gantry rail and sides have to be altered as well. Am i missing anything?

You will not be able to use a router mount for a spindle. You will need to get a spindle mount for your Z axis.

Click the link to add information to this solution:
I currently own a blacktoe router cnc.Want to convert to spindle.Do I use the same Z axis mount?

Yes, it is ok if the thickness is plus or minus +/- about 2mm.

Additional Information:



Additional Information:

Click the link to add information to this solution:
is IT OK TO USE THICKER PLYWOOD (MATERIAL) to BUILD THE CNC MACHINE, BLACKFOOT, BLACKTOE?

Yes, our porter cable collets and nuts will fit the porter cable 7518.

Additional Information:

Click the link to add information to this solution:
HAVE PORTER CABLE 7518 ROUTER ON MY CNC AND WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF YOUR ER20 COLLET NUT, FOR THE CABLE, WILL FIT ROUTER.

If you would like to use a spindle rather than a router on your existing CNC, we will send you another set of components that will allow the spindle to be mounted properly which includes the z-axis rails, rail support, spindle mounts and the dust shoe components. You can find this item to purchase here: https://www.buildyourcnc.com/category/z-axis

Click the link to add information to this solution:
I HAVE BLACKTOE 4.1 WITH PORTER CABLE 890 ROUTER.TO CONVERT TO SPINDLE(2.2KW) CAN JUST CHANGE THE MOUNT?

The blackTooth machine, as it is designed cannot be modified easily as the box within which it is contained also serve as its structure. We are currently designing a special mount for the greenBull (for the 40 watt tube) which will provide 5'x10' or 6'x12' work area and the machine is far less expensive than comparable 4'x8' laser systems. We are also developing a 4'x8' 80 watt system where the tube is in the horizontal orientation. More information can be found in the R&D section.

Click the link to add information to this solution:
I am interested in getting your 40W laser system. How difficult will it be to increase the size to 48" x 48"?

You will need a Z-axis mount for Spindle if you are currently using a router.

Click the link to add information to this solution:
Do I need Z axis mount for spindle? I currently have router cnc blacktoe

Yes, we have the optional table for the blackToe, but we need to fabricate it, which only takes one day. We generally reserve one week for the total fabrication and packing of all parts.

Click the link to add information to this solution:
DO YOU HAVE BLACKTOE MACHINES WITH TABLES READY TO GO OR HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE MAKE ONE?

Yes, the 651 oz/in motor requires a driver that is compatible to the motors (the motor will draw 6 amps max and the driver paired with this motor will be able to allow for a 6 amp draw). I would also recommend a 36 volt power supply for better high velocity performance.

Click the link to add information to this solution:
I HAVE ONE OF YOUR SMALLER STEPPER MOTORS RUNNING MY X AXIS BRIDGE CRANE AND IF IT IS MOVED TO FAST THE MOTOR SOUNDS LIKE SKIPPING STEPS WILL 651OZ REQUIRE A DIFFERENT POWER SUPPLY CONTROLER?

The files and hardware option for our machines has been removed from the site due to the following reasons:
Difficulty for the end use of the files and the challenges (and time/money) on our side to assist in using these files.
The abuse of these files over the internet.
Ultimately may reduce the sales of machines keeping us in business.
Sadly, this is what has come out of our company attempting to be open; however, the machines sold on this site is still far lower in price than the competition for the quality that we provide as we have a great desire to engender the cottage industry to fulfill their need for low end manufacturing. My sincere apologies if this causes any inconvenience.

Additional Information:
NO, is not possible, I can help with the shipping cost

Additional Information:

Click the link to add information to this solution:
IT POSSIBLE TO BUY THE CAD FILES FOR BLACK FOOT MACHINE, MECHANICAL PARTS AND ELECTRONICS BUT NOT WOODEN PARTS, SAVE SHIPPING COSTS? IN THAT CASE I WOULD INSTRUCT SOMEONE MILL ME.

If one of your stepper motors decides to stop moving and the others are moving during a CNC milling or laser cutting job, then there could be two things that could be causing this.

- The motor found its limiting torque (usually comes with a not-so-pleasant sound). This is where the control software is trying to move the stepper motor too fast (velocity, or too fast too quickly, acceleration) and the load against the stepper motor (inertia of the machine, or the material against the end mill while milling). Recommended action is to lower the velocity and/or acceleration, and/or lower the feedrate when cutting.

- There is a wiring issue with the wiring from the driver to the motor. This could be a loose wire, or a chafed wire (or two shorting together). It can also be a loose digital wire from the controller board to the driver. Sometimes wire ties can be the culprit. Recommended action would be to thoroughly inspect the wiring.

It's probably not the limit switches since that would cause a stop to the entire motion of the cnc router or laser machine.

Sometimes Mach3 will show a status when something goes wrong, but in cases where the motor is stopping due to its torque limit, then that would not be shown in the status. It's always good to check it anyway.

Additional Information:
I need to clarify my situation a little better after going to my shop and trying to run another program on Mach 3. About 15 minutes into the milling process all the motors (2-X axis, Y axis and Z axis)stop but the program continues to run. I stop the program and after a couple of minutes when I try to restart the program all the motors start working again. Then after another 15 minutes or so, all the motors stop again. I checked and rechecked my wiring. This has never happened to me before when running the same programs with the same setups and motor speeds. All of a sudden when I reloaded a program I successfully used before it does this. Do you have any recommendations?

Additional Information:
Yeah, it sounds like a more complex issue. Have you tried running in the air without using the spindle. This may be a power related issue.

Additional Information:
That's exactly what I did. I ran the program without the router motor on just to see if the motors would get through the whole program but they stopped working after about fifteen minutes and then I was able to start them again after about 3 or 4 minutes. I never had this problem before so you can imagine my frustration especially after ruining a couple of projects on expensive material.

Additional Information:
Sure. I can completely understand. Try this: disconnect all but one of the driver from power and digital connection and do the air run. Repeat this for each driver and note your findings. This will rule out the drivers causing a power failure.

Also, is your stepper motors and drivers on a separate power circuit from the computer?

Additional Information:
I will try disconnecting each driver and digital connection, which will be a real pain because it will be hard to access.

All the stepper motors, drivers and computer are plugged into the same power strip.

Additional Information:
Ok, so there is no power failure going on, but I believe it is necessary to test each stepper motor and driver pair individually. Hopefully that will lead to a conclusion.

Additional Information:
It will take a little time but I will do it and report back on my findings.

Additional Information:
Curious, what machine is exhibiting this problem?

Additional Information:
I purchased a BYCNC kit back in 2009 with an approximate cutting area of 2' X 4'. I later changed out the Z-Axis Motor and controller for a larger one and have two X-axis motors and controllers. In 2010 I rebuilt the machine out of birch plywood instead of the particle board that the kit supplied. I sent Patrick pictures to him. The machine never gave me a problem till now.

Additional Information:
Thanks for the update. This is Patrick by the way. I answer pretty much all of the Customer Service questions. That machine has given quite a good history.

Additional Information:
I love the machine and made a number of samples of my work for my e-commerce site, but I can't start selling product until I know this problem is solved because I will not be able to fulfill orders. I finally got all the electronics out of its enclosed protected area near the machine so that I test each controller as you recommended. I hope the problem can be rectified. Will let you know.

Additional Information:
Thanks.

Additional Information:
I tested each stepper motor and driver pair individually and they worked so what might be the next step?

Additional Information:
Did each stepper motor driver pair work for the full +15 minutes?

Additional Information:
Yes, I had them in operation for over 30 minutes.

Additional Information:
Ok, well it’s good that the motors and driver are ok. We are now down to the power supply and the breakout board as possible causes for the stop. I have a feeling it may be the power supply where with all three drivers drawing current and the power supply maybe getting too hot. Is the fan in the power supply working? You can also test to see if there is 36 volts on the power supply voltage output (V+ and V-).

Regarding the breakout board, if you have an oscilloscope, you can test if the driver pulses are outputting, but I would consider this as a last resort after you determine if there is a problem with the power supply.

Additional Information:
I tested the power supply with a voltmeter and each output was registering 39-40 volts. I think the problem may be the g-code. I am using V-Carve pro to do design and output to Mach 3 Mill g-code. When I studied the g-code lines I noticed that further into the program the z-axis g-code stopped zeroing out to move to the next part of the carving. In other words both the x and y keep moving and the z just stopped working because there was g-code missing. I think something is missing when the design was converted to g-code. I noticed that when I ran a simpler project it worked without problems so I need to investigate this further.

Additional Information:
New Update, Its not the g-code. I started to run the long program and everything was working fine until about 45 minutes into it, all the motors stopped working (but the program was still running) and there was a high pitched hum. When I put my hands on the motors they were all trying to move but it seemed they were all stalled. I turned the power off, gave it a minute and when I turned it back on I was able to move the motors again. Could this be a power supply problem?

Additional Information:
It does sound more and more like a power supply problem. Did you test the power supply after the motors stopped?

Additional Information:
No, I did not. What should I be looking for.

Additional Information:
It’s good that you know the voltage during normal operation, so you have a base understood. If the power supply is the problem, the voltage will be reduced or non existent when measured after the problem.

Additional Information:
Also, check to see if the fan is running on the power supply when the motors stop. That may (not absolutely) be an indication.

Additional Information:
I'll run another test, check the voltage and fan when the problem occurs and let you know. Thanks for hanging in there with me as we try to resolve the problem.

Additional Information:
It’s my pleasure. This service is rarely used and is faster then email. Odd nobody uses it. Any recommendations you can give would be great. No problem using this FAQ to pose ideas as this resolution will be cleaned up later.

Additional Information:
It might be that people do not realize you can communicate through the sight like this because they are so used to e-mail and texting. You may want to explain this feature in the customer service section.

I ran the program this morning and it did not take long before the motors stopped. While operating the voltages for all three motors was 46 volts, when the motors stalled (and again there was a high pitch hum) the voltage went up to 60 volts and the fan on the power supply was operating.

Additional Information:
So, the driver work individually, but not all together. There is a high pitch sound when the motors fail. You have noted 60 volts from the power supply and the supply fan remains on. This is a difficult issue to resolve, but it seems to me that your power supply may be bad. The 60v measurement tells me that the current dropped and ohms law tells us that is current drops, volts will rise if the resistance stays the same.

Additional Information:
As one last test I am going to test each driver again and let them go through the entire program because it seems that the failure can occur at the beginning or towards the end of the program. When I originally tested ach driver I let them run for about a half an hour and the program takes over an hour to run completely. I just want to make sure that it is not the drivers. I will report back when I finished but as you noted it may be the power supply but I want to make sure.

Additional Information:
That’s a great idea.

Additional Information:
I just ran the x-axis through the whole program and there was no problem especially since I have two NEMA 23 motors moving that axis. Before I check the Y and Z could having a NEMA 34 on the Z axis with appropriate controller be a problem. I used the larger motor on the z axis because the router I am using is a large 1 1/2 hp. I've run this program in the past with this set-up and have not had a problem.

Additional Information:
Having a, say 3.0 amp driver, driving a stepper motor that typically requires a 6 amp driver would not seem to be an issue since the driver is limiting the current draw, but the driver may not be able to handle larger coil and back EMF with the protection on the 3.0 amp driver. With that said, I don’t believe that is the issue in this case.

Additional Information:
I don't either because I was able to run this and other complicated programs with this set-up in the past. I will let you know on the y and z axis.

Additional Information:
Thanks

Additional Information:
I ran the Y axis and z axis separately through the entire program and there was no stopping or problem. I guess the culprit is the power supply and I'll order a new one and hope that resolves the problem.

Additional Information:
Yes, that is the most probable cause. Please keep me informed. Thanks!

Additional Information:
Received and installed the new power supply. I ran the program with the router on and it worked flawlessly. The program runs for an hour and a half and I did not have a single problem. I guess it was the power supply but I was glad to go through all the diagnostics we discussed before replacing it. I hope this power supply lasts a lot longer than the last one. Thanks much for hanging in there with me and coming up with the solution.

Additional Information:
It’s my absolute pleasure and I am so happy to hear that the power supply replacement solved the problem.

Additional Information:


Additional Information:
Y axis stop working X & Z work fine Y axis has two motors have check wiring & connections new breakout board still the same port & Pin set OK dont no were to go next David

Additional Information:


Additional Information:
my cnc plasma cutter will run out the program when cutting. what is the cause?

Additional Information:
The cnc plasma question shod be a separate question. Can you pise that question by clicking the customer service live menu button at the top? Thanks.

Click the link to add information to this solution:
WHAT CAUSES ONE OF MY TWO AXIS MOTORS TO STOP WHILE THE MACH3 PROGRAM IS STILL RUNNING

Mounting the extruder to the whiteAnt can be done a couple of ways. One is to take the 4 mounting holes located at the lower portion of the z-axis rail support and use long screws protruding out. Take a thinner material and drill the four holes matching the locations of the 4 screws and screw on nuts to hold it in place. The other option would be to use the metal bracket and fasten to the edge of the rail support.

Click the link to add information to this solution:
IS IT POSSIBLE TO MOUNT THE NEW EXTRUDER WHITEANT?

Yes, it is ok if the thickness is plus or minus +/- about 2mm.

Additional Information:



Additional Information:

Click the link to add information to this solution:
IT OK TO USE THICKER PLYWOOD (MATERIAL) BUILD THE CNC MACHINE, BLACKFOOT, BLACKTOE?

Modifying the Z-axis to accommodate a larger motor will be a worth while task and is possible, however we have not calibrated the z-axis therefore using the 1600 Steps-per inch in the motor tuning on our machine in our shop. We have not noticed any significant depth increments from not calibrating the z-axis but only from zeroing the z axis too close to the material. Also in your design did you specify the actual depth and the length of tool (end mill/ bit) that you are using?

Click the link to add information to this solution:
I bought a Blacktoe 2 x 8 three years ago and have always had a problem with the Zid axis. No matter how tightly I've calibrated the axis it always cuts to deep. Can I put a larger Stepper motor on Z-axis using the same motion electronics that came with the original machine.

You will need to build the table unit for your machine. There are instructions on how to do this at the bottom of the product page here, https://www.buildyourcnc.com/Item/cnc-machine-blackFoot-v4
There is no estimate on how much this will cost though, since there are too many variables involved to do this.

- PC with parallel port and USB port
- 20awg stranded wires for the motors - http://www.buildyourcnc.com/electronicscombo.aspx
- 18awg stranded wires for power supply to drivers
- 24awg stranded wires for breakout board to drivers
(location and spacing of components varies from one person to another, so we do not provide cables/wires)
- General purpose extension cord (cut the female end off) to provide power to power supply
- USB cable to power breakout board
- Parallel cable to communicate to breakout board
- Router
- (optional - instead of router) Spindle with power inverter http://www.buildyourcnc.com/SpindlesAndAccessories.aspx
- (if purchasing spindle with inverter) General purpose extension cord (240v) (cut the female end off) to provide power to power inverter
- End Mill(s) http://www.buildyourcnc.com/ProductsEndMills.aspx
- CAD, and/or CAD-CAM software (to produce geometry, machine operations, and g-code) http://www.buildyourcnc.com/CNCsoftware.aspx
- CNC control software (to read g-code and control machine) http://www.buildyourcnc.com/CNCsoftware.aspx

This answer is applicable to most of our machines with the exception of the greenLean and the blueChick since those machines are equipped with a table structure.

Additional Information:



Additional Information:



Additional Information:

Click the link to add information to this solution:
IF I PURCHASE A GREENBULL 6X LONG Z CNC MACHINE KIT AND MACH3, WHAT ELSE WOULD BE REQUIRED TO ASSEMBLE THE WORKING MACHINE? HAVE CAD SOFTWARE.